Daily Kos

Why Wind Power Won't Make Power Flow

Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:14:58 PM PDT

[From the point of view of Aussie nuclear vs wind discussion on Nuclear Australia. This applies, everywhere, however. It's why wind cannot be a substitute for base load power--David Walters]

Critics of nuclear energy sometimes point to Germany's planned nuclear
phase-out policy as an example of the industry's limited future. Let
us put aside the very credible discussions regarding the possibility
of that policy being reversed for a moment and turn the tables.

How are German renewables performing?

As reported in the Herald Sun, Terry McCrann digs into the performance
record of one of the largest wind powered systems in Europe.

Germany's E.ON Netz operates the grid which has one of the biggest
'feed-in' wind power sources in Europe. Each year it produces a
WindReport. The latest makes interesting, sober, reading.

Germany has 18,300MW (megawatts) of installed wind capacity --
close to half Australia's total installed electricity generation
capacity, about double Victoria's.

E.ON Netz draws on 7600MW of that.

In the precise German way, it tells us that maximum feed-in was
6234MW at 9am on 15/12/05.

Sound great? Except when you read the minimum feed in, at 12.15pm
on 27/05/05. Just 8MW. And no, I'm not missing a nought or two.

Some 7600MW of installed capacity delivered just 8MW. When the
wind don't blow, the electricity don't flow.

On average across the year, the 7600 MW of installed wind capacity
produced 1327MW. That's an operational level of 18 per cent of
capacity. In rational terms, it's insanity.

Indeed as E.ON Netz notes, installed wind capacity went up 12 per
cent in the year but actual wind power fed in to the grid went up just
1.5 per cent. Because of lower "wind availability".

The way you 'solve' this is that 'traditional' power stations with
capacities equal to 90 per cent of the installed wind power capacity
must be permanently on line to guarantee power supply.

So not only do you have to install six to seven times as much wind
capacity as the output you will actually get, but you also have to
build 'shadow' coal/gas/nuclear(?) as well.

That's one power station for the cost of 12 or so.

Did I say insanity? Unless you can build big enough batteries to
store the power generated when the wind does blow.

Funny I should say that. E.ON has actually pioneered exactly such
a battery. It's the size of four shipping containers, uses
'undisclosed' chemicals and can produce all of 1MW for four hours.

See this link for projected vs. actual performance for any day (just
select via the calendar on the right side of the page). Interested
that they seem to always exceed the projection, but fall WELL short of
the 7,600 MWe capacity. The 18% number looks about right from my
perusal.

As much as I hate to be baited into nuclear vs. renewable discussions,
the data bears careful digestion. Just as I've said from the
beginning, when you objectify and quantify the discussion and base it
on demonstrated performance - the picture becomes MUCH more clear.
I've learned something though. In my previous back-of-the-envelope
calculations, I was crediting wind with a 30% capacity factor. Seeing
the 18% above, I guess I should pull that number back a bit.

Tags: nuclear, wind, wind power, nuclear energy (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 95 comments

    •  and here's one of the ways that happens. (10+ / 0-)

      Speaking from engineering experience here.  I ran into this issue and had, shall we say, a very harsh time trying to get it dealt with.  

      The wind survey equipment that is used to calculate available wind and thus predict the output of turbines on a given site, compiles data on the basis of 10-minute averages.  

      The turbines themselves have about a one-minute lag in their response to changing wind: the time it takes for the rotor to respond to an increase or decrease in wind, due to the simple inertia of the rotor and the generator.

      Wind turbines have a "cut-in point," the minimum wind speed at which they will begin to operate, and a "cut-out point," the maximum wind speed at which they will operate.  Below the cut-in point, there isn't enough wind to turn the blades.  Above the cut-out point, wind speed is so high that the machine has to shut down otherwise it will overspeed and damage itself.

      So.

      You have three minutes of underspeed wind, four minutes of wind that's within the operational limits of the turbine, and three minutes of overspeed wind.  

      Your wind survey equipment has compiled that into a ten-minute average.  The underspeed and overspeed have been averaged together, so it looks as if you have ten minutes of usable wind.  

      In fact, you actually have four minutes of usable wind.

      Also:  Very often the surveys are done with the minimum number of recording anemometers that can be installed on the site.  However very often the site topography, and/or seasonal changes in wind patterns, cause substantial variations throughout the year.  So you take your best guess and plant the survey equipment where you think it will get a decent sample, but in fact what you miss are the subtle but significant variations from one end of your site to the other.  

      At the end of a year (typically these run for a year), your wind survey is "certified" because the survey equipment was "certified," and everything looks good on paper.  

      There are also computer programs that will take the sparse survey data and attempt to translate to whole-site wind conditions.  This is a-priori impossible because in effect they are attempting to extract more information than is actually present, a trick that works where you are dealing with linear values, but not where you are dealing with chaotic flows.  Yet the programs are flashy and cool to look at, and they appear to produce scientifically valid outputs, so the management types who deal with this stuff think everything is just fine.

      But the reality is: when the windfarm gets built, it may not perform up to the level that was forecast.  

      The big investors (utilities, investment banks, etc.) that get involved in these projects know this because they've seen it before, and they've factored it into their terms of investment.  What they know is that there's a difference between the predicted performance and the actual performance, and they have a good idea of the percentages, and they plan accordingly so the investors (shareholders or whoever) are properly protected and earn the returns they expect.  So from a financial perspective there's no problem, everything works as expected (that is, as the investors know to expect from previous cases).  

      What they probably don't know is the technical stuff about why these projects often don't perform as originally predicted.  That is, the technical reasons why they (the investor groups) have to factor in an offset between predicted performance and actual performance.  (Probably they attribute this to turbine manufacturers making optimistic claims of performance, but that's not the correct answer.)

      The correct answer is: ten-minute wind survey averages, and one-minute turbine lags, and site topography.  Now you know something that a lot of the management types don't.  

      ---

      The above does not add up to a rationale to discard or downplay wind as a power source.  We need all the climate-clean power we can get, and wind is certainly producing enough to justify its existence and expansion, as is solar.  And wind & solar are still good investments financially.

      But the big secret that a lot of enviros don't get, is that in order to maximize the use of renewables, we need a major expansion in nuclear fission to provide baseload power.  

      Nuclear and renewables go together.  And that's the way to build a climate-clean viable energy future.  

  •  Location, location, location. (8+ / 0-)

    I don't know how the winds typically blow in Germany, but I would imagine it to be possible that they may not have large areas that are well suited to Wind Power and may be putting some Wind Farms in sub-optimal locations.

    There are many places, such as the Plains States in the USA, which have nearly constant winds and so are a much more reliable source of wind power.

    Large scale solar power plants are the way to go IMO.

    The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

    by El Yoss on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:13:05 PM PDT

  •  When wind power is used to fill a hydro reservoir (12+ / 0-)

    then the two peaks are decoupled.

    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

    by ticket punch on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:15:37 PM PDT

  •  This has always bothered me about wind power (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Agathena, lineatus, Lujane

    Its unpredictability makes it hard to rely on.  Solar is at least predictable if periodic, and can be used for peak power generation for AC and daytime industrial uses.  But wind is not so predictable.

    This can be mitigated in a robust grid by geographic diversification, mixing wind power from numerous locations.  That adds costs and increased transmission losses, however.

    The installed gas turbine generating capacity could help even out wind generation, since it can be turned on and off more easily than coal plants.  This might be easier than trying to invent and install large-scale energy storage systems (which would likely not be batteries, but hydrogen or gravity-based systems.)

    Other renewable power sources may be better for base (constant) power demands.  Geothermal, tidal and wave energy systems seem promising in this regard.  Perhaps more research and subsidy dollars could be directed in those directions.

    I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

    by Dallasdoc on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:18:39 PM PDT

    •  As I understand it, the tides are (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DaleA, gobigblue, lineatus

      even predictable. This is still in its infancy.

      What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

      by melvin on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:21:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  However, as you expand the scope of wind power, . (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      xaxnar

      ... the unpredictability is reduced. The total availability from a network of sites in a region is greater than the availability from one site ... and the availability from, say, the Dakotas and the Great Lakes would be greater still.

      Of course, the US and Australia have more ability to take advantage of this effect than Germany ... since Germany is much smaller, geographically.

      And in any event, its not as if we dispense with the need to store power if we were to adopt a crash nuclear program ... some of the main applications of stored-hydro are to make power generated by nuclear power plants in low-demand periods available in high demand periods.

  •  I know of no place (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    gobigblue, xaxnar, lineatus

    where the wind blows "nearly constantly."  I live near the great wind farms east of Fort Stockton, Texas.  Sometimes the vanes are turning, just as often they are not.  They are putting up new mills all the time, but I doubt they would be there at all w/out heavy gov't incentives.  

    •  not quite (5+ / 0-)

      Government subsidies aren't as big a factor as you think.  

      One place wind projects get an advantage is via carbon trading, which is a legitimate market mechanism.  

      In fact, investors in wind projects often do as well as they expect, because the difference between predicted performance and actual performance has been factored into the investment plan.  

      See also my very long post above, for the technical details.

  •  When I worked with windpower (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    raines, DaleA, G2geek, dirkster42, cjallen, Lujane

    (disclaimer:  lo, these many years ago)

    ... one option discussed was to use the power generated by wind during off-peak times to run pumps which would lift water into a pond, then discharge it through a generating turbine during peak demand times... in effect, using water as an energy storage device.

    Wind has problems, that's true.  (It's especially true if you're a raptorphile like me.)  But I don't think we can afford to count any renewable out of our energy mix right now.

    Now, go spread some peace, love and understanding. Use force if necessary. - Phil N DeBlanc

    by lineatus on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:26:32 PM PDT

    •  ...ooops - see ticket punch and arcana above. (0+ / 0-)

      Now, go spread some peace, love and understanding. Use force if necessary. - Phil N DeBlanc

      by lineatus on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:28:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes, water batteries. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gobigblue, A Siegel, lineatus

      Pumped storage is a great idea, it can solve some of the intermittency problems with wind.  

      Ideal case is to team up a wind farm with a hydroelectric project, and have the wind pump water uphill when there is surplus wind power.  

      In locations where that's not possible, the best bet is a nuclear reactor and some gas turbines.  In which case you want the reactor to handle the baseload and the gas turbines to come online only as a last resort, to minimize CO2 emissions.  

  •  Build facilities that can deal with (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger, petewsh61, alizard, Calamity Jean

    unpredictable flows by remote wind sites, engineere for variable production, ie ammonia fertilizer plants.

    This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
    This is only a test.
    If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

    by ben masel on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 08:55:10 PM PDT

  •  It might make sense (0+ / 0-)

    for the primary use of wind to be powering off-grid installations or just reducing overall draw on the grid's main power supplies (steam turbines, usually, aren't they?).

    At least, until we have a really good, low-loss way of storing energy in a way that allows high production at any given moment and evens out the humps and bumps of uneven wind, tides, earthquakes, you name it.

    All eggs in one basket is a bad plan, generally. Wind is one of a modest but slowly growing arsenal of tools. Who knows; maybe we'll find a way to use the still-radioactive waste from nuclear power stations for energy in things like radioisotope thermoelectric generators.

    John McCain: Senator, former POW, confusing the USA with Cadia since 2006.

    by Shaviv on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 09:03:17 PM PDT

    •  actually we can make... (6+ / 0-)

      new nuclear fuel out of "waste."  France has 20 years' track record doing this.

      A couple of decades ago I was opposed to nuclear due to the waste issue.  That's now been solved.  And emerging technologies will raise the recovery rate to 95%.  

      •  Yeah, but it's a little more tricky, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        xaxnar

        and it's also currently illegal in the US due to one of Carter's antiproliferation EOs, isn't it?

        John McCain: Senator, former POW, confusing the USA with Cadia since 2006.

        by Shaviv on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 07:17:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's more tricky ... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LIsoundview, Plan9, xaxnar

          and more complicated than that

          Sure, Carter gets the reputation as the "bad guy," but he was really just following up on policies that were started in the Ford administration.

          Nevertheless, he did impose the ban. Regan got rid of it in the early 80s. Clinton brought it back shortly after being elected.

          All of this is immaterial, since the real reason that recycling of nuclear fuel (reprocessing) has not been pursued in the US is cheap uranium. Why recycle when the new stuff is so inexpensive? It's the American Way. (Plus, unfortunately, politics places an additional cost on starting up any type of recycling project, making the economics even worse.)

          The French, on the other hand, have taken a long-term view since the oil-crisis in the 70s. Thus, it was France, not the US, who invested in recycling both their fuel and the fuel from other countries as well. It was France, not the US, who seriously pursued advanced breeder-reactor technology in the hopes of providing a virtually unlimited supply of energy.

          Unfortunately, even in France with all of its socialist inertia, politics can rear its ugly head at inopportune times, and the largest of the French forays into breeder technology was shut down about a decade ago, just as they were working out all of the kinks, and just after a change in the government.

          Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
          -- George Eliot

          by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 10:08:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Terry McCrann of the Herald Sun (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ben masel, Elise, NRG Guy

    probably would like you to respect copyright.

    http://www.news.com.au/...

    Their terms and conditions are very clear.

    When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

    by clonecone on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 09:03:53 PM PDT

  •  Your bias is made obvious (5+ / 0-)

    by the fact that you present the max output vs. the actual output as if they were ever expected to be much closer, which they weren't.

    Dkos = democracy. The only problem is that both give voice to idiot and genius alike. Read an anti-Hillary diary lately?

    by JamesBrown4ever on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 09:05:16 PM PDT

  •  Dispose of Nukes in our Breakfast Cereal (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger, Agathena, bincbom

    Wouldn't all that yummy nuclear waste go great in our kids school lunches. We could spread it all over our fields like fertilizer and feed it to the children. Oh what a wonderful world that would be. Nukes sound really lovely perhaps a sprinkle on popcorn to give it that something special. Oh just think we could run the waste water into our bathwater and we wouldn't even need to have a heater because it would be hot all on it's own. This sounds so great how about putting the nuclear waste site in my back yard, heck I bet you want a few barrels for your back yard. Whatever we do it will be in somebodies back yard and the best part is it never goes away.

    •  and it's still better than... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Yosef 52, Plan9, xaxnar, bryfry

      the uncontrolled release of fossil fuel wastes into the atmosphere, where they are presently killing the planet.

      You do know what +2 degrees Celsius adds up to, yes?  

      Meanwhile, France has been recycling its nuclear wastes into new nuclear fuel, for the past twenty years.  

      I used to be opposed to nuclear due to the waste disposal issue.  That's been solved.  

      Nuclear + solar + wind = climate-clean energy future.  

    •  You clearly don't know much about nuclear (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Plan9

      waste, what it is, who how the issue has been resolved. Over 50 years of commercial nuclear power in the US and the total spent fuel wouldn't cover the floor of a COSTCO to 9 feet.

      If you are going to comment here, at least know something about the waste issue and the issues of how it's been solved, or not, depending on where you think the specific problems lie.

      Close the fuel cycle and we are talking about getting rid of 90% of the mass of the spent fuel. It can be stored above ground, below ground or...just where it is. Waste of this sort has never killed anyone or even threatened anyone. Can't same the same about fossil fuel.

      As one commenter stated, NONE of the 'alternative' fuels can carry base load, you need nuclear tied to other forms of peaking power or stored power.

      Once you start building pump-storage, the cost of either solar or wind goes up astronomically: which is why it is not done anyplace.

      Now, conversion of current hydro units can play a small and important role in creating more pump-storage: for nuclear as well as solar or wind.In fact, the largest pumpstorage facility in the world in at Helms, CA which was built in conjuction with Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant. It can take the full load of Diablo's 2400 MWs and then turn around and run for a full two weeks before the upper lake is drawn down. We could do that with Hoover, Grand Couilee, the Feather River hydro stations, etc. It would make nuclear that much more attractive.

      David

      •  " how the issue has been resolved" (0+ / 0-)

        Hey, way to put the conclusion at the top of your argument.

        From what I have learned about nuclear waste, the issue  has never been satisfactorily resolved anywhere by anyone.

        This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

        by Agathena on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 12:17:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Spent nuclear fuel is already stored safely (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LIsoundview, bryfry

          It is stored safely in spent fuel pools and in concrete casks. It is shielded and isolated.  It is monitored constantly.

          It can be taken out of storage and used to make more fuel, since 98% of its energy remains.

          The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

          by Plan9 on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 03:30:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How idealistic (0+ / 0-)

            In March of this year, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued a fine of more than $1 million for the failure of DOE's contractor to properly manage the existing low-level nuclear waste disposal facility - the Environmental Restoration Disposal Facility. This fine shows that DOE is not properly managing the low-level nuclear waste it already has on site. How can the Department be seriously considering sending more of the same waste to Hanford?
            http://www.hanfordwatch.org/

            And the mining of uranium causes no risk to life whatsoever. The mine sites are beautiful parks.

            This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

            by Agathena on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 02:02:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How moronic (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              LIsoundview, Plan9, Joffan, Matthew B

              Not only do you confuse Cold-War-era military waste with spent nuclear fuel from commercial reactors, you don't even get the level of radiation correct: low-level (as in what is produced at hospitals throughout the country every day) vs. high-level (spend nuclear fuel, which is safely kept out of the environment as Plan9 explains).

              But, hey, the building of wind turbines causes no risk to life whatsoever. The turbines are big pretty things that never break or fall down.

              Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
              -- George Eliot

              by bryfry on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 03:44:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hanford is still planning to accept waste (0+ / 0-)

                as of 2007. Presumably it is not from the cold war. I mean nuclear waste in general, low-level, high-level, from the military, from power plants.

                Where did you get the idea that I advocate wind turbines?

                Never mind.

                This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

                by Agathena on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:52:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  High-level waste (0+ / 0-)

                  by U.S. law, must be disposed of in a deep geologic repository. Hanford is not a geologic repository.

                  I really don't care what you advocate. Wind turbines are not the point. You made an idiotic statement, so I made a similarly idiotic statement to demonstrate how stupid your statement was.

                  This is a game. I'm making sport of ridiculing how willingly you flaunt your ignorance.

                  What can I say? It's a slow day, and I have to get my kicks somehow.

                  But if I can stop just one uninformed person from buying into the foolishness that flows so effortlessly from your keyboard, then it will have been worth it.

                  Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
                  -- George Eliot

                  by bryfry on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:05:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ny statement is that the problem of (0+ / 0-)

                    the disposal of nuclear waste has not been solved. It remains a universal problem.

                    Now if you want to get juvenile about that ok, have fun.

                    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

                    by Agathena on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:35:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You have not even identified ... (0+ / 0-)

                      what the "problem" is. Thus, you have no point.

                      Plan9 provided you with useful information. Facts. Stuff that is actually happening. Nothing that he said is theoretical, even the part about making more fuel, because it is happening in France today, right now, as I write this.

                      You, on the other hand, give a childish response: "And the mining of uranium causes no risk to life whatsoever. The mine sites are beautiful parks." Furthermore, you add some gooblty-gook from an anti-nuclear website, which serves only to confirm that you have no idea what you're talking about. Spent fuel, high-level waste, low-level waste, whatever, it's all the same to you. How can you complain about a "problem" with nuclear "waste" when you don't even know what nuclear "waste" is?

                      I speak to adults on an adult level. I speak to children (or adults who act like children) on their level as well.

                      If you would like to have a serious, adult conversation, then I'm more than happy to oblige. After all, if you read my other comments in this diary, you will see that I am capable of being polite and carrying on intelligent discussions of complex topics.

                      Since you've already blown one chance, however, with Plan9, I strongly suspect that you did not come here to have an adult conversation. Instead, I believe that you came here to parrot some nonsense that you picked up somewhere without giving it two seconds of thought.

                      * sigh * ... but perhaps you will surprise me.

                      Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
                      -- George Eliot

                      by bryfry on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:18:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've been down this road before (0+ / 0-)

                        in the 1960's as an environmental activist. We were accused of being ignorant and stupid by industry scientists. Although we were ordinary citizens, lay people, we knew that what we were witnessing was wrong: pollution and vast areas of clear cut logging etc. Many of us did get educated, I worked for a non-profit environmental law office with a comprehensive library others got degrees. 40 years later, turns out we were right.

                        Today, as a cancer survivor [I hope], I'm concerned about the enormous increase in cancer reported by WHO and International Agency for Research on Cancer. Increasingly women with no family history of the disease, who do not smoke, drink, who lead healthy lives are being struck down with breast cancer. Some studies are working on stress as a factor and some studies are working on environmental pollution as a factor.

                        However, exposure to ionizing radiation, such as medical X-rays and occupational exposures, particularly in the medical and nuclear industries, can cause a variety of neoplasms, including leukemia, breast cancer and thyroid cancer. WHO

                        I did not identify a problem? The disposal of nuclear waste is a pollution problem. Radiation is emitted on a daily basis from nuclear power plants, not enough to cause a health risk we are told, but it all adds up. More power plants, more radiation. There is the initial pollution from uranium mining, the day to day operation pollution, the chance of an accident, the disposal of the waste all adding up.

                        In the United States alone, the Department of Energy states that there are "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" as well as "thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material" and also "huge quantities of contaminated soil and water".[2] Despite these copious quantities of waste, the DOE has a goal of cleaning all presently contaminated sites successfully by 2025.[...]

                        The DOE wishes to try and clean or mitigate many or all by 2025, however the task can be difficult and it acknowledges that some will never be completely remediated, and just in one of these 108 larger designations. Wikipedia

                        I would love to accept your assurances that all is well, nuclear waste is not a pollution problem. Life would be easier. But I am skeptical of all industry assurances.

                        This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

                        by Agathena on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:08:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I believe it is not a pollution problem ... (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Plan9

                          in the same way that a malfunctioning streetlight that stays on throughout a sunny day is not a light pollution problem. If there are clouds blowing by, sometimes the day is brighter and sometimes less so, but the streetlight remains unnoticeable.

                          Similarly, the things you say "add up" do of course add up, but they add up the way two daytime streetlights would: still insignificant. If all the mines, reactors, etc. were moved to a low-radiation state it would still be a low-radiation state.

                          --- G. R. L. Cowan, boron internal combustion car fan
                          How shall cars gain nuclear cachet?

                        •  Ah ... see? (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Plan9, Agathena

                          Isn't this better? I think so. Now I understand where you are coming from. Thank you.

                          (Sorry to take so long to get back to this, but this diary entry is pretty much dead, and DailyKos was down earlier today.)

                          Now, let me return the favor and tell you where I'm coming from.

                          Did it never occur to you that I, and others who advocate nuclear power here, do so because we are concerned for the environment?

                          Please think about this. Every human enterprise involves changes to the environment. Unlike any other life form on Earth, man can survive anywhere on the planet because he is able to alter his environment. We've been doing it for thousands of years. Europe was deforested long before the industrial revolution. It took only people with simple axes to clear most of the continent of its original "old growth" forests for bio-fuels (i.e., "wood") and for land for inefficient agricultural practices and for ships built of renewable materials (again, "wood"), which were powered by renewable energy (wind).

                          We've been at this game a long time, and that is not going to change. Thus, anything that reduces man's impact on the environment is something that I consider to be a good thing. Energy is essential to our productive lives. (If you don't believe that, then you can turn off your energy-consuming computer right now.) I want my energy to come from the smallest source possible with the smallest effect on the environment.

                          I like that I can get this essential energy from a (relatively speaking) tiny amount of land. I like that nuclear energy is able to get so much energy from such a small amount of material. I very much like that the results of this process are isolated from the environment from the moment that they are created.

                          Keeping things out of the environment as much as possible, including sprawl -- which I take to include massive solar arrays, legions of wind turbines, and the huge network of wires that are required to support these technologies -- is a goal that we should all be working for. I happen to believe that pristine wilderness is worth saving (as much as it can be in modern times). Pristine wilderness does not have a wind turbine or a solar panel in it. Pristine wilderness does not benefit from the toxic fumes that result from burning fossil fuels.

                          It is sad to discuss cancer, which (it is true) has been increasing over the last century. But, before we jump to conclusions, we should ask the following serious question: is the increase in cancer rates due to additional pollution, or is it due to the fact that people are not dying younger from other causes, or is it both? Is this not perhaps the result of a healthier society as a whole?

                          A century ago, the third leading cause of death in the US was diarrhea (believe it or not), which beat out both heart disease and stroke, but was behind pneumonia, influenza, and tuberculosis. Cancer was far down on the list. Personally, I'm glad that I live today rather than then, but I think that if you look at the statistics for the developing world, you will find that the people who live in these parts of the world are closer to a 19th century America than the world in which we live.

                          Cancer is not a top concern for them. They have more important things to worry about.

                          One of my parents is a cancer survivor, the other was not so lucky. Three out of four of my grandparents are still alive, however, I am happy to say. The one that is no longer with us didn't die from cancer, but rather died after a battle with Parkinson's disease. So I understand the concerns about cancer without a family history, and I wish you the best in staying in remission. (By the way, the WHO is now working on studying the effect of shift work on cancer rates, and the preliminary evidence points to a link between the stress involved with irregular work schedules and cancer.)

                          In the end, however, it only makes sense to attribute cause after there is sufficient credible evidence. Sure, you can say, "it all adds up," but without any context, that is no less nonsensical than the man pissing in the ocean who says, "every little bit helps."

                          Containment of radioactive materials by the nuclear industry is not perfect. I freely admit that, but it doesn't have to be perfect. The amounts released by the US nuclear industry are truly inconsequential and that is the important point.

                          You are far, far, far more likely to develop cancer from the carcinogens released by the cars that you pass on the street every day. You are far, far, far more likely to develop cancer from the carcinogens released by a coal plant than a comparable sized nuclear plant. Hell, you are probably more likely to develop cancer from the carcinogenic materials contained in the electrical transformer down the street (which is necessary to get the electricity to you) than you are from a nuclear plant that generates the electricity.

                          My discussion of risk takes into account the entire nuclear fuel cycle, from extracting the uranium out of the ground to nuclear "waste" to nuclear accidents. My comments are not an "industry assurance." I am not the nuclear industry. I'm just a guy who has done my homework, tried to learn as much as he can, and is trying to pass what he has learned on to others.

                          We environmentalists and activists are just trying to save the world, no? Our methods may differ, but our goals are the same, and I hope that you will give serious consideration to what I have said.

                          Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
                          -- George Eliot

                          by bryfry on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 02:46:35 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

    •  Toxic coal waste is in our kids' lungs (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LIsoundview, bryfry

      Nuclear waste is always shielded and isolated from the environment.  Meanwhile, toxic waste from coal-fired plants, which provide over half of our electricity, is dispersed in the air, soil, and water; that waste contains toxic heavy metals like lead, mercury, and arsenic.  Coal-fired plants emit mercury vapor and radon.  The fly ash of coal contains concentrated uranium-235. In fact coal-fired plants produce enough fissile uranium to run all of nuclear plants.

      Just in case you ever thought about why most scientists are OK with a nuclear plant in their area but are definitely not OK about coal-fired plants.

      Coal-fired plant waste kills 24,000 people in the US every year and causes hundreds of thousands of cases of lung and heart disease.

      I like to prioritize my worries.  Nuclear waste is way, way down on the list when it comes to threats to public health, and coal waste is way at the top.  If you are afraid of radiation, then you should be 100 to 400 times more afraid of a coal-fired plant than a nuclear plant.  Because that's how much more radiation a coal-fired plant emits.

      We have three ways of getting large-scale baseload electricity: burning fossil fuels, damming rivers, and nuclear power.  The means with the least environmental impact and least public-health impact is nuclear power.

      I am all for renewables, but as David Walters and geek2geek point out, they have serious limitations when it comes to reliable, large scale energy production.

      The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

      by Plan9 on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 03:27:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So what? Build five times as many... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger, Agathena

    ... because once you have them, it's free energy forever for the cost of greasing the bearings. And it's CLEAN.

    Second, I don't think you've been keeping up with recent research on battery and ultracapacitor technology.

    Finally, your statement that you "hate to be baited into nuclear vs. renewable discussions" is more than a little odd, considering that this diary was clearly designed to do exactly that.

    •  So costs mean nothing to you? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Plan9

      If that is the case, why don't we just build the 400 more NPPs we need, get rid of the fossil plants altogether, and live happily ever after?

      Wind can't provide the base load no matter how many wind turbines you build. It simply not reliable and consumers won't stand for outrageous costs. 24/7 power then you can talk about adding experiments like wind and solar.

      Solar, even if it can only provide to capacity for about 9 hours a day, is at least regular and dispactable based on excact known sun shine (albeit weather can be a problem).

      The GOAL is to get rid of coal and other fossil fuels. Wind has not gotten rid of ONE MW of coal or fossil power since all wind has to be backed up by some form of on-demand power.

      David

      •  But ... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Plan9

        It's free energy forever!

        Can't you read? ;-)

        Just like when I bought a car, it was free transportation forever (for the cost of putting gas in the tank). Oh wait a minute, that car broke down and had to be replaced. Well, some forevers must last longer than others, just as some free things cost more or less than other free things.

        Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
        -- George Eliot

        by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 12:32:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Meh (6+ / 0-)

        Cost is per MWh, not per MW. That has to be one of the silliest arguments against wind. Wind is quite competitive per MWh, and its price is guaranteed NOT to increase over time, once installed.

        Each MWh of wind displaces one MWh of coal or gas-fired electricity. It DOES NOT MATTER if the MWs are not displaced, what matters is to displace the MWh.

        See this:
        No technical limitation to wind power penetration

        •  Well ... (0+ / 0-)

          Hi Jerome,

          I agree in general with the points that you make, except that I'm not so sure about the "price is guaranteed not to increase over time" part.

          You know as well as I do that wind is a capital-intensive energy source. How do we know that the technology is going to continue to function as long as it is expected to?

          After all, nuclear is also a capital-intensive option, and to tell you the truth, when the current generation of PWR plants in the US were built, the steam generators were expected to last much longer than they actually have.

          The cost of replacing steam generators has been absorbed into the cost of nuclear power, which has made it more expensive than it otherwise would have been (although still very competitive).

          When you make your claim, are you considering the failure of key components, such as gearboxes, and the additional cost that will result to have them replaced? Or are you saying that in spite of these potential problems, the cost of wind, per kWh, will not increase?

          I'm just curious to know what you mean, since you are more knowledgeable about these matters than me. Thanks.

          Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
          -- George Eliot

          by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 01:47:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  fair question (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BruceMcF, bryfry

            Most of the cost of a wind farm is the initial investment. Once that's put in place (the financing), costs are essentially fixed. O&M (including big parts replacement) is now well understood (at least onshore) and, overall, really cheap compared to the cost of financing. Big part replacements are indeed scheduled and existing turbines seem to fit within the timeframes provided and the estimated costs.

            So, once you have a wind farm up and running, with a financing in place, your costs are known with quite a lot of precision. If anything, it's going down as time goes by.

            That does not mean that future wind farms (yet to be built and financed) will costs the same as those built today - that depends indeed on the cost of turbines in the future (impacted by the cost of metals, cement and the like) and that of financing (the interest rates), but despite an upwards blip in the past two years (due as much to very high demand as to higher commodity prices), they are trending down.

      •  You are confusing capacity and output here. (0+ / 0-)

        Wind has not gotten rid of ONE MW of coal or fossil power since all wind has to be backed up by some form of on-demand power.

        This is factually untrue, and silly to boot.

        Suppose that the US were the size of Germany, and similar conditions prevailed, and the same rule is in place, and all the back up capacity is fossil fuel based.

        The Megawatts delivered by wind are not being delivered by fossil fuel.

        What that policy actually means is a limit of the total share of wind in the total energy portfolio.

        And then from there, observe that there is no need for the on-demand electricity to be fossil-fuel based. It is at present because we rely at present on fossil fuel. But to confuse the way things we do things now with the only way things can be done is to assume at the outset that we will always have a fossil-fuel based economy.

        That on-demand energy can be pumped-storage hydro, it can be biomass coal, and, indeed, with a smart grid, it can be conservation of energy. And further, the more wind power is generated at sites a substantial distance apart, the less back-up total energy is required, which makes stored power and biomass power even more economic as elements of the electric power portfolio.

        •  Bruce, yes, when the wind blows, the (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Plan9

          MWs are produced, (Measured in MW HOURS for those of you who seem hung up on this). MW hours (or, actually, minutes) that are made by wind reduce at that time the need for fossil...given the way wind works, and, more importantly, coal works, the inability of coal to generally follow load makes hydro do the "on demand" part of maintaining the grid.

          But that's not the point, the more wind you have doesn't mean in fact less reliance on fossil because during those days, or whole weeks, or regional differences, you need on demand and/or base load power to provide those MWs when wind is not available. Not only that, but it is totally unproven that more wind (and by this I suspect you are meaning more wind over a wider regional area) one has the less fossil or nuclear one needs. I think this is rediculous and would require us to build, as thoseo of us who supsect wind isn't all it'scracked up to be have suggested, and this diary proves, you'd still need about 3 times as much capacity as the name place capacity suggests on a wind farm (or, regionally, or nationally). It would be way too expensive.

          Germany NOW needs it's fossil and nuclear back up...in reality base load since wind is not providing it, can't provide it because it's unreliable. Even they exprect no more that 25% of their grid to be powered and are planning to supplement the rest with dirty coal. This is why I posted this diary, because I think wind is a looser in terms of providing base load. In fact, the Euro-Wind authorities understand this and planning for it as part of a total integrated fossil-wind-hydro-nuclear grid.

          David

          •  Reiterating a confusion does not strengthen it. (0+ / 0-)

            But that's not the point, the more wind you have doesn't mean in fact less reliance on fossil because during those days, or whole weeks, or regional differences, you need on demand and/or base load power to provide those MWs when wind is not available.

            First, CO2 is not emitted by fossil fuel power generating capacity, it is emitted by fossil fuel power generation. So what matters is reliance on fossil fuel power for MW hours. 100 MW of capacity that is used 24 hours straight, as coal-fired baseline generation, is 2,400 MW hours of generation. 200 MW that is used for 8 hours is 1,600 MW hours of generation. The former is fewer MW capacity but more reliance on fossil fuel.

            Second, evidently, that back up demand does not have to be fossil fuel based. It could be stored power, it could be biomass coal, and it could be energy conservation.

            Your main problem is that you are setting up nuclear as a one-size-fits-all solution against wind as a one-size-fits-all solution, when there is no basis for the assumption that we ought to be looking for one-size-fits-all solutions.

  •  wind power to move container ships (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BruceMcF

    Wind can be used to assist diesel engines on container ships. I hope this technology becomes widespread. Seems like every little bit helps - and it looks pretty cheap to fly a big kite off the bow of the boat - you should be able to easily retrofit any container ship to use this technology.

    In a democracy, everyone is a politician. ~ Ehren Watada

    by Lefty Mama on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 09:45:50 PM PDT

  •  Hell No We Won't Glow (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    badger, Agathena, gobigblue, sravaka

    Americans are not fooled - nuclear power is for chumps.

    Nuclear power is probably the most subsidized industry of all and the industry would evaporate without the ridiculous unfair corporate welfare lavished on American nuke power from the Beltway.  Electricity generation with nuclear power is economically uncompetitive (more expensive than wind, solar, or fossil fuels), unsafe (Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Sweden last spring), and unpopular.  The waste disposal problem remains unsolved, and nuclear power plants are huge terror targets.

  •  Are those the only two choices, wind & nukes? (0+ / 0-)

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 11:57:32 PM PDT

    •  Of course not (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LIsoundview

      There are plenty of choices. See how they break down for the US in 2005:

      Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

      In addition to wind and nuclear, there's hydroelectric (not much more potential there for increased capacity), natural gas (which has become expensive and will require building new LNG terminals along the coast), oil (which at 3% of total net electricity generation outperforms all non-hydro renewables, even though oil is expensive), and various other technologies (which includes wind and accounts for less than 3% of generation).

      And then there's coal, which accounts for almost half of the generation mix.

      There are plenty of choices, but it's not an either/or situation. Why should nuclear or wind be taken off the table?

      Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
      -- George Eliot

      by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 12:52:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  bryfry, that 49% of coal represents close to (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Plan9, bryfry

        500 GWs of power, or billions of tons of carbon/particulate emissions. No amount of the renewable wedge, including hydro, will displace that coal. I want to displace that coal. It is the biggest most concentrated form of carbon emissions in the world (manmade that is, the oceans exchange 80 times the amount of carbon) and cause immediate deaths from particulate. Wind (or solar or any other form of alternative fuel) will never displace that coal. Period. Only nuclear and in some cases tidal power. The latter two because they are relatively cheap to build.

        The lies that they won't effect carbon emissions is only a lie if it's MADE a lie by holding up building NPPs. If we need to build 500 NPPs, then we need to do it and stop interferign with building them.

        David

        •  So it's now a choice between (0+ / 0-)

          the dangers of carbon emissions and the health risks posed by nuclear waste/daily radiation emissions from nuclear plants. (?)

          What a wonderful world!

          This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

          by Agathena on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 10:42:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, if you ask me ... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LIsoundview, Plan9

            That's a pretty easy choice.

            The "health risks" posed by "nuclear waste" are vanishingly small. In fact, in the US, this "dangerous nuclear waste" from commercial nuclear plants has harmed no one.

            The "daily radiation emissions from nuclear plants" are truly insignificant -- lower than background radiation sources in many places in the US, and well below the radiation emissions from the typical coal plant (did I mention that coal produces almost half of the US's electricity today?). That's just the radiation; it doesn't even consider all of the other awful stuff that coal plants put out.

            If you don't give a damn about carbon, I don't care.  There are enough reasons to prefer nuclear over coal, without even considering the amount of carbon-dioxide put out by coal plants.

            Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
            -- George Eliot

            by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 10:51:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  How do dangers of waste compare? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LIsoundview, Plan9, bryfry

            You think that the problems of nuclear waste compare to coal waste? Check out the Relative Dangers of Energy Sources.

            A Musing Environment

            •  Excellent questionnaire (0+ / 0-)

              It appears to have been generated  by the Quakers?  Do you happen to know under what circumstances?

              •  relative dangers questionnaire (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Plan9, bryfry

                Thanks! I created the questionnaire, with some editing and suggestions by others.

                For example, I originally put in one category what is now in two: how many have died and are expected to eventually die from nuclear power accidents that have already happened? For me, it's one question, even if the people aren't yet dead or even sick, but for others it's two.

                I teach climate change to Friends and the public. This includes the science, looking at our own GHG emissions, and an introduction to policy and technology issues, including nuclear power.

                I began with preconceptions as to how the dangers compared. I know this because I was shocked at how many die from coal waste, and how few die from nuclear waste.

                What surprised you the most?

                •  Very good questionnaire (0+ / 0-)

                  Thanks for doing it.

                  You might want to take a look at a new book on energy and global warming that may be highly relevant to your teaching mission.  It describes and debunks common misinformation about nuclear matters, etc. It's the best, most readable, most objective introduction for the layperson on these topics that I've found.  But maybe you know of something better...

                  The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                  by Plan9 on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 09:04:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  The amount of people dying from coal mining (0+ / 0-)

                  for non-accident items.  I knew about black lung, emphysema & cancer, but didn't know it was that prevalent in the modern age.  I thought that as uranium mining is much safer today than in the 1930's through 1950's, that coal mining would be, too.

                  Apparently, not.

                  BTW, an extra category might be the average life expectancy of a coal miner or uranium miner versus their state averages.

                  Somewhat in this vein, a friend of mine's father died at the age of 93 from lung damage caused by coal mining in the 1930's and 1940's.  He had suffered from it all his life since the mining, but as a tough old bird, it didn't kill him until he was 93.  It's surprising how long sometimes the cause is from the final death.

        •  And, by the way, we use that much power ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... in part because power companies are in the business of encouraging more power use.

          One substantial source of energy in the next twenty years will be conserving energy that is presently produced, supplied, purchased, and, compared to best practice, wasted.

    •  Certainly not ... 'wind alone' is a straw horse . (0+ / 0-)

      ... argument, since any serious reliance on sustainable renewable power will include a portfolio of sustainable renewable energy sources.

  •  What's the point? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    xaxnar

    Not sure I understand your point.

    I have always assumed that electricity generated by wind power would be stored somehow (batteries? magic containers? fairy wands? I don't know how.). Then it would be fed out to the regular electric grid.  I assume that's what happens.

    I assume also that the fact that windmills generate less power on calm days than when the wind is blowing does not come as a surprise to the engineers who designed the system or the public officials who approved it.

    Finally I assume that no one expected windpower to replace other potential sources of electricity; it was designed as a supplement, not a replacement.

    So those are simply the assumptions I take into the discussion, which lead me to wonder what issue you're trying to raise when complaining that generating capacity goes up and down, the amount of power released to the grid varies, and windpower cannot be a complete solution.

    •  Yes, but it's not, and the marketing (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Plan9, xaxnar

      of wind parallels that of just about any commodity with the whole gambit of propaganda, factual engineering and everything under the sun to push it...or oppose it.

      The mere fact that so many people have misconceptions about wind shows that there is nothing obvious about it. That the public generally thinks that a "1,000 MW" wind farm will give you 1000 MWs, and other misconceptions shows me that public officials are just a gulable as engineers OR the general public.

      I don't think it's an 'either/or' situation since both nuclear and wind are oriented, in fact, to different sections of maintaining load. This is the whole point of the diary, copied, basically, from the "Nuclear Australia". Nuclear is for base load and wind is for supplemental. I try NOT to counterpoise the two, but it's the anti-nuclear advocates that can't keep counterpoising it and, honest citizens who bought into the "Wind is the Answer" sort nonsense.

      In fact, Wind-tied-to-hydro, is fine since they can work in tandem very nicely. The same is true with nuclear-tied-to-hydro. The difference is that while nuclear is providing cheap clean power on a regular basis, wind is good for when the wind blows, so it's harder, obviously to dispatch or use when you may want it.

      You make the "assumption" that wind is tied to soarge and you'd be very wrong. No wind farm is, to my knowledge, built with storage in mind. One big exception to this, however, is in Denmark where it is integrated into Norway's massive hydro development and can provide reverse power to the water turbines to pump water back into their reserviors, which it does on occassion.

      David

      •  Just because (0+ / 0-)

        wind power is not tied to storage right now, does not mean that it will never be. That's the entire point of doing research.

        Wind power some day could be a large part of our energy solutions, although most likely never a complete soluion. It will have to be combined with solar, tidal, geothermal, etc., and possibly even nuclear.

        I certainly agree with you that most people are ill-informed about energy solutions, especially the president.

        A hungry feeling came o'er me stealing...

        by AndrewOG on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 04:45:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, actually ... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xaxnar, AndrewOG

          plans are already underway to store excess energy from wind for use later. The storage system consists of compressed air, pumped into a cavern, which can be extracted later -- not to produce electricity directly -- but to improve the efficiency of a natural gas plant.

          This is a great victory for those who like natural gas plants, such as the Rocky Mountain Institute and the Natural Resources Defense Council.

          Other storage technologies for wind are coming ... some day ... some day ...

          Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
          -- George Eliot

          by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 05:01:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not just in Texas-Wind Power Goes Underground (0+ / 0-)

            Over inIowa, there's already work being done on an underground compressed air energy storage facility.
            Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES) enhances wind power

            In a CAES at the ISEP facility, air will be compressed using low-cost, off-peak electricity, and wind that is not being sold on the grid at that time. The air is stored in a deep underground geological formation for later use in making electricity. When energy is needed, the stored air will be released, heated and used to drive generating turbines. The electricity it produces can be used as needed, especially during high-demand peak hours. This process uses less fuel than a conventional combustion-turbine facility.

            "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

            by xaxnar on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 06:14:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  i remember a diary about this (0+ / 0-)

            Personally, I am not crazy about the idea or pumping compressed air underground. It just does not seem safe to me. I envision exploding rocks or high-pressure leaks.

            A hungry feeling came o'er me stealing...

            by AndrewOG on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 07:45:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Wind generated electricity is stored (0+ / 0-)

        I spent several hours a few years ago walking through the desert in brutal 120 degree heat near Palm Springs, California, taking a tour of a huge wind farm.  If you have seen "Into the Wild," the central character in the movie is driven past that wind farm en route to his destiny in Alaska.

        I have no engineering knowledge and no financial interest in how electricity is generated.  I didn't understand most of the technicalities, but one thing was very clear. The electricity generated by those windmills was stored in batteries right there in the wind farm and fed out to the grid as needed.

        So your certainly about this is very suspect to me. I don't say you are wrong, but to my certain knowledge what you describe does not accurately capture what I heard loudly and clearly in California.

    •  Unfortunately, another of your assumptions ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Plan9

      is wrong:

      Finally I assume that no one expected windpower to replace other potential sources of electricity; it was designed as a supplement, not a replacement.

      Ah, but the "environmental" groups do expect this and they claim that wind is a replacement all of the time. To them, it is a choice between the two. Greenpeace is even unashamed enough to blatantly state that it is a case of Wind vs Nuclear.

      Wind also features a prominent place in their anti-nuclear stunts:

      Erecting symbolic white wind turbines in front of grey, looming cooling towers at the Doel nuclear power plant, the Greenpeace activists indicated the wiser choice for Belgium: cheaper, safe, renewable wind energy.

      Other anti-nuclear groups, such as the NRDC, put the case as an either/or renewables or nuclear decision, with wind leading the way among the energy producers:

      While nuclear power plants and their fuel cycle facilities emit little carbon dioxide, they are neither necessary nor sufficient to avoid dangerous global warming. U.S. electricity needs could be met while reducing emissions by 70 percent or more through a combination of increased end-use efficiency, wind power, solar power, integrated gasification combined-cycle coal plants with carbon capture and storage, and high-efficiency natural gas combinedcycle turbines.

      It's nice to note, however, that at least the NRDC is honest enough to admit (in so many words) that what they're really advocating is more coal and natural gas plants.

      And let's not forget the "factoids" from the hard-core anti-nuclear groups:

      The authors found that the locations with sustainable Class 3 winds could produce approximately 72 terawatts. A terawatt is 1 trillion watts, the power generated by more than 500 nuclear reactors or thousands of coal-burning plants.

      You know and I know that windpower is not suitable for baseload, but is merely supplemental to the entire generating mix. Thus, it is not a complete solution. The anti-nuclear propaganda says otherwise, and this is the point that I believe David was trying to make.

      Comparisons must be made to counter the false propaganda.

      Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
      -- George Eliot

      by bryfry on Mon Oct 01, 2007 at 03:47:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't agree (0+ / 0-)

        Well, perhaps some people argue for wind power alone as a complete solution. I wouldn't know.  I don't.

        But you seem to share your friend David's assumption that nuclear power is a complete solution. And I don't agree with that.

        It's a very dangerous solution, as we learned in Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Some of the people posting here, including myself, are old enough to remember both.  And the issue of disposing of nuclear waste cannot be lightly dismissed.

        I know nothing about energy policy. Nothing. Zero. I took up your friend's arguments because they seemed so bizarre and specious. But in my gut, if forced to choose between nuclear energy and renewable forms of energy such as windfarms, or even the new experiments with ocean currents, I'd turn thumbs down on nuclear energy every day. And if forced to choose between nuclear energy and no energy, I'd be inclined to think it's time to consider what kind of world we want to leave our grandchildren.

        •  Well, I agree with you (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LIsoundview, Plan9

          You certainly don't know anything about energy policy, and you have misinterpreted my arguments and my position.

          It's still not too late for you to learn, however. ;-)

          I never said that nuclear power is a complete solution. Never.

          In fact, my point was that the only people who do frame the debate in terms of nuclear vs. wind, nuclear vs. renewables, or whatever, are the anti-nuclear propaganda groups and the ignorant people who parrot them.

          David makes an interesting point at the end of his diary. The topic of nuclear vs. renewables ideally should be avoided altogether, and the only reason that it gets discussed is because of the anti-nuclear misinformation out there.

          The truth is that it is not a case of nuclear vs. wind. It's a case of nuclear vs. coal and it's a case of wind vs. coal. This is true in the US, and it's especially true in Australia where the coal lobby (supported by the mining unions) is so strong. Hell, they've even given up pretending otherwise:

          AN expanded nuclear power industry poses the greatest threat to coal miners' jobs, surpassing the risks associated with other greenhouse reduction measures.

          Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union mining division boss Tony Maher warned yesterday that nuclear power would jeopardise job security for coal miners and power workers.

          ...

          "That's the harsh reality. A solar farm down the road is not going to close down a coal-fired power station. But 25 nuclear reactors will," he told the Ten Network's Meet The Press program.

          Substitute "wind farm" for "solar farm" and I believe that Tony Maher's position will not change.

          And if really does come down to a case where we are "forced to choose between nuclear energy and renewable forms of energy such as windfarms," then we've already lost the battle. Coal has won.

          Finally, I would like to encourage you to take time to learn as much as you can about about energy policy, renewables, and nuclear energy. Don't believe any of the hype, try to keep some perspective, but especially don't believe the stuff put out by the professional anti-nuclear activist industry. It's all crap. Think critically and avoid the pseudoscience.

          Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
          -- George Eliot

          by bryfry on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 04:20:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is of course important. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LIsoundview, Plan9, bryfry

            My objection to wind is not intrinsic to the technology itself or its use, it is what it is used for. It is only anti-nuclear advocates that counterpoise wind to nuclear. They are for different markets, if you don't believe, contact the sources Jerome and some others have posted. No country anywhere seriously thinks that wind is going to provide base load MWhrs in any reliable form. Which is why it's NOT done anyway and why they still build coal plants and some nuclear.

            Wind can be good so less fossil is used for those MWhrs produced, but thats it. It does it do it 24/7 and it doesn't prevent the building of MORE coal plants. I want to get rid of Coal. Only nuclear can do this because I trade one MWhr of coal for MWhr of nuclear, predict it, figure it out, plan for it. Wind I can't. This is why Danish wind farms would simply not exist without Norwegian pump storage and French nuclear power.

            In Germany, where they are planning to go to 30,000 MWs of wind down the road, again, not one wind turbine will prevent the building of those nice brand new and very dirty 26 coal plants they need to build. In fact, the expansion of the wind power in Germany is coupled to the expansion of coal, because they stupidly want to get rid of nuclear.

            Build wind, just build nuclear for base load.

            David

          •  Boring! (0+ / 0-)

            You and your friend David are extremely boring and patronizing.

            •  Sorry, we'll try ... (0+ / 0-)

              to be more entertaining next time. ;-) Perhaps we can get Angelina Jolie to deliver our message. There's nothing like sex appeal to counter a short attention span.

              I'm sorry to break it to you, but learning is hard work. It's often tedious, unglamorous, and ... well ... boring.

              If you are not going to even take the time to read what I have said and try to understand it, if you are going to sit there and mischaracterize my statements, then I have a right to be patronizing.

              Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
              -- George Eliot

              by bryfry on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 09:36:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Most of your assumptions are correct ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... however, with the free ride that coal presently get in terms of not paying for the damage it does, it makes more commercial sense to bring coal power online (or other fossil fuel sources, primarily gas turbine if the dip is short term or while spinning up the coal power) than to store wind power off-peak and sell it on-peak.

  •  Things to know about the Herald Sun (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shpilk, Jerome a Paris, Eiron, sima

    For U.S. readers, here's some things you should know about the Herald Sun.

    The Herald Sun is a right wing tabloid published in Melbourne (Australia). It is from the Rupert Murdoch stable -- think "The New York Post" or "Washington Times" with an Australian accent -- and is virulently anti-progressive. (In American terms, it's anti-liberal, but in Australia the Liberal Party is the equivalent of the Republicans.)

    Terry McCrann is a finance journalist, extreme global warming sceptic, and fossil industry supporter. He is but one of several columnists among Murdoch's Australian newspaper chain who continually issue diatribes against the viability of the renewable energy sector, the science of global warming, and any measures to mitigate/reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

    The diary is troll. I would suggest that Mr Walters take his diary and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Sideways.

    •  Yes, but... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LIsoundview, xaxnar

      his analysis corresponds to that of others who have studied wind and the problems that wind creates economically of not living up to it's promises. And thatis the point you should respond to. Otherwise it is like me responding to you by suggesting that the real motivation to anti-nuclear activists is to boost the profit margins of GE, Westhinghouse and other Wind turbine manufacturers, that you are shills for the carbon interests (seeing as the above companies also make coal plants, nuclear plants, solar plants and wind turbines).

      There ARE carbon interests that oppose nuclear energy for their own narrow interests...but I still respond to their research based on the validity of the research and not the neferious underpinnings of these corporations.

      David Walters

  •  I think (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shpilk

    the major goal would be diversification of the power supply. When the sun is shining, the wind does not typically blow hard, and vi